shkrobius ([info]shkrobius) wrote,
@ 2009-06-13 23:08:00
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Entry tags:americana

My Americana. XIX. The Tiger and The Wolf
Infanticide was widely practiced in China for thousands of years: on the third day after birth, the head of the family decided whether the child was accepted into the clan. If the child was accepted, he or she was considered human and killing such a child was homicide punishable by death. If the child was not accepted ("not lifted up" = buju or fuju), it was not considered human and was either abandoned or killed, with impunity. The connections to the abortion debate in the US are striking: denying humanity to a child by a Chinese parent finds the obvious parallel in American mothers denying this humanity to their unborn children. One can see how it would look a few millenia from now.

A surprising thing is that the opposition to this practice has been promoted from the top beginning from at least 300 BC. There are laws against it from Qin (255-206 BC) and Han dynasties (206 BC - 220 AD). The punishment for the abandonment and killing the infant was the same: tattooing and "wall building" for men and "grain pounding" for women. It appears from these legal codes that these were rather common and seldom punished transgressions. The enforcers themselves were unwilling to prosecute the offenders, who did nothing that their ancestors were not doing for hundreds of years. Given that, why there were such laws?

The Confucians (Zhou dynasty; Mencius & Mozi, 350 BC) argued that the infanticide should not be blamed on the parents; it was the ruler's failing in providing the sufficient support to the families to raise their children. If I understand it correctly, the argument was that the commonality of this practice implies that the ruler is not taking proper care of his people, so the very occurrence of the infanticide casts shadow on his credibility as administrator. This was the official version given to the rulers. The second objection was for internal use and it was that the infanticide violates heavenly harmony: The popular metaphor was that the tiger and the wolf, even though they were voracious animals, do not devour their young. The message was that humans should be at least as humane toward their children as the beasts were towards their offspring. ("Drowning girls in China", DE Mungello)

The infanticide is wrong because it challenges the cosmic balance: humans do what even beasts do not do. The balance will reassert itself, and the consequences will be apocalyptic and universal: everyone will pay for the transgressions of these homicidal parents. Of course, the proponents of the infanticide argued that you cannot kill someone who is not a human, that it was both ancient and perfectly socially acceptable practice, that it was good for the siblings to receive more care, etc. These poor, naive souls were too primitive to make the argument from parent's choice and personal liberty.

The latter advancement had to wait for another 2000 years. I've never understood why our pro-choicers stop at the abortions. Exactly the same arguments can be made about the infanticide, too; all one has to add is that the babies are not human until their parents recognize them as human. They are still clinging to the echo of the old belief informing their ("natural") conviction that a born baby IS human. But they've already rejected the fundamentals of this belief: that it is not theirs to decide who and who is not human, who dies and who lives. Why should one stop half way in this rejection, which is already irrevocably made? Isn't this planet overpopulated? What are we waiting for?

Is it just a matter of time, and in another 50-100 years we'll be right there -- or the very reluctance to go all the way betrays the divided heart?




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Прогресс должен идти вперед
[info]vi_z
2009-06-14 05:43 am UTC (link)
Вы правы. Любую женщину, отказавшую мужчине в сексе, или не отказавшую, но применившую любой метод контрацепции, следует татуировать и приговорить к каторжным работам. Китайцы правильно заметили, что отказ от ребенка "casts shadow" на Правителя. Это особенно актуально во времена столь непогрешимых правителей, заботящихся о народе, как Хуссейн Обама.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед
[info]shkrobius
2009-06-14 06:43 am UTC (link)
Progress is a tricky thing: sometimes one plans to be 100 years ahead but finds oneself 2500 years behind. I gather you did not like these Confucian arguments. How about your own? Why is it wrong to kill born children that the consensual opinion and the tradition does not consider human?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед
[info]vi_z
2009-06-14 07:18 am UTC (link)
О том, где именно проводить границу между человеком и не-человеком разные времена могут иметь разные взгляды. И древнекитайская, и современная позиции вполне разумны. Семья, отвечающая за ребенка в какой-то момент решение о том, выделять на него ресурсы, или нет. Древнекитайская позиция обладает даже некоторыми преимуществами -- легче понять, насколько здоров ребенок и проч. Где бы эта граница бы не была проведена, она необходима, поскольку позволяет семье принять решение, заводить ребенка, или нет.

Мне неприятна тоталитарная pro-life позиция, объявляющая детей собственностью государства и отбирающая право принятия решения у родителей. Когда только государь (будь то император или современное правительство) вправе решать за родителей, заводить ребенка, или нет. А мать превращается в инкубатор, принадлежащий государству. Мотивы имперских указов в китае и современных pro-life активистов одинаковы. И те и другие считают себя в большем праве на принятие решение, нежели родители. Естественно, теперь это идет месте с программами "гос. финансирования многодетный семей" и т п.

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Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед
[info]esspe
2009-06-14 08:33 am UTC (link)
Так у про-лайф тоже граница - в момент зачатия проведенная? Нужны аргументы не за наличие границы, а за выбор самой "правильной" границы.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-14 09:38 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-14 03:03 pm UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-14 03:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cema, 2009-06-14 09:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-15 03:31 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед
[info]shkrobius
2009-06-14 02:49 pm UTC (link)
In other words, nothing is fundamentally wrong with the infanticide. Quite to the contrary, it allows eugenics and frees the parents from the clutches of the oppressive state.

So, why not destigmatize and practice it everywhere? Is that because of the stubborn resistance of these totalitarian pro-lifers or thee is some other regrettable obstacle in the path of progress?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-14 03:10 pm UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-14 04:23 pm UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-15 02:22 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-15 03:29 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-15 04:11 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-15 05:12 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-15 06:19 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-15 07:07 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-15 08:01 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-15 09:59 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-15 10:11 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-15 06:16 pm UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-15 02:39 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-15 04:04 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-15 04:25 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-15 05:36 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-15 06:45 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-15 08:22 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-15 05:04 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-15 05:56 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-15 06:25 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-15 07:19 am UTC
Re: Прогресс должен идти вперед
[info]esspe
2009-06-14 08:31 am UTC (link)
Кстати, а известно - осознает ли себя младенец или нет?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

осознает ли себя младенец
[info]cema
2009-06-14 09:33 pm UTC (link)
Осознаёт, что существует, но не осознаёт себя отдельно от мира, в котором живёт.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: осознает ли себя младенец - [info]kusochek_syru, 2009-06-16 05:24 am UTC
Kittencide
[info]ahla_user
2009-06-14 05:50 am UTC (link)
Cats kill some of their kittens when they feel they can not take care of all of them.

Hamsters kill all their babies if those don't leave home in time.

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Re: Kittencide
[info]shkrobius
2009-06-14 06:09 am UTC (link)
... and a female praying mantis bites off the head of Mr Right after mating. That would be another thing to adapt: simple and practical.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Be careful
[info]cema
2009-06-14 09:34 pm UTC (link)
During the mating!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Kittencide
[info]ivan_ghandhi
2009-06-15 04:58 pm UTC (link)
Ducks kill ducklings they don't like.
Lions eat little lions, just to get rid of the obstacles to sex.
Amoebas eat other amoebas, the smaller the easier to eat.

Then what?

Soldiers kill smaller soldiers.

Some people think infants are not humans. Some people think some people are not humans. Infidels, for instance. Or Jews. It was some kind of tradition, by the way. Why stop it.

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Re: Kittencide
[info]ahla_user
2009-06-16 06:57 am UTC (link)
I didn't said that it is good to kill babies. But I think that we do have evidence to show that it is an instinct, at least in some cases.

So we can not call it 'unnatural'. We can argue if it is 'moral', but moral is what we decide to be moral.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]faceted_jacinth
2009-06-14 09:25 am UTC (link)
"The popular metaphor was that the tiger and the wolf, even though they were voracious animals, do not devour their young."

Unsurprisingly, the pro-life rhetoric was based on ignorance right from the start.

Also, totally related: http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/328184.html.

Note that I'm not saying that infanticide is "good" or should be tolerated in a civilized society; I'm just pointing out that calling it "unnatural" is lying, while further muddling the discussion with Praying Mantis references is trolling.

PS: it would be interesting to speculate how menstruation would look a few millenia from now. I mean, the woman consciously decided that her egg is not human and denied it the right to be fertilized, so that it died in a quite literal stream of blood. And after punishing menstruation as homicide they can go further and restore gender equality by criminalizing jerking off (and pollutions as well, naturally). Because really, who have the right to set an arbitrary line dividing Human from Nonhuman?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]shkrobius
2009-06-14 02:24 pm UTC (link)
>>I'm not saying that infanticide is "good" or should be tolerated in a civilized society.

Forget the rest. Why are you not saying it? What's fundamentally wrong about it?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]faceted_jacinth
2009-06-14 04:44 pm UTC (link)
> What's fundamentally wrong about it?
Nothing is _fundamentally_ wrong with it. There are many serious problems with it, from the simple fact that the baby is a living thing, to its potential for becoming sentient, to the negative effects on society, including increased rates of non-newborn infanticide. Naturally, all these problems are present in abortions too, decreasing in strength steadily as we go to "emergency" contraception, contraception, sex without intent of fornication and, finally, masturbation. Similarly, the compelling reasons _for_ terminating pregnancy wither as we go back towards birth, and disappear almost completely in a civilized society. Still there are exceptional cases like with anencephalic babies, that are usually denied life-support and die quickly, which does technically constitute murder by willful inaction, doesn't it?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-14 08:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]faceted_jacinth, 2009-06-14 08:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-14 10:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]faceted_jacinth, 2009-06-14 09:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-14 10:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-15 02:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-15 03:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vi_z, 2009-06-15 04:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]faceted_jacinth, 2009-06-16 08:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-16 10:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]faceted_jacinth, 2009-06-17 06:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-17 07:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]faceted_jacinth, 2009-06-17 07:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-17 10:27 pm UTC
1/2 - [info]faceted_jacinth, 2009-06-19 03:42 pm UTC
Re: 1/2 - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-19 05:44 pm UTC
2/2 - [info]faceted_jacinth, 2009-06-19 03:42 pm UTC
Re: 2/2 - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-19 05:52 pm UTC

[info]ipain
2009-06-14 05:36 pm UTC (link)
well, talking and action are complimentary not redundant. so i would argue that all not-yet-adult deaths - up to insurance cut-off dates for young drivers - are preventable and are happening just because communities they live in, have a common and strict understanding what human is. one who 'runs for a ball' or 'runs a streetlight' just does not cut it. australian natives still think in those terms:

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]shkrobius
2009-06-14 09:27 pm UTC (link)
Never been there. It must be quite a country.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]worldtensor
2009-06-15 12:55 am UTC (link)
http://www.tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectures/documents/Hrdy_02.pdf

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[info]shkrobius
2009-06-15 02:38 am UTC (link)
Thank you, I liked pp. 31.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]chaource
2009-06-16 08:09 am UTC (link)
Lions systematically kill their young when they don't like them or when they were born from the wrong male or something like that. Lots of animals kill their young when things get tough. I personally find nothing wrong in killing babies; but I would say that this must be done with the consent of the mother because otherwise the mother feels too much like a baby-making machine.

(Reply to this)


[info]edwardahirsch
2009-06-16 08:22 am UTC (link)
Интересно, а древние китайцы это делали для того же, для чего сейчас (только сейчас они определяют пол ребёнка до того, как он родится) или из чисто экономических соображений (определение пола, впрочем, тоже является экономическим, как я понимаю)?

Странно, что в развернувшейся Выше дискуссии о правах родителей на ребёнка не упомянуты Тарас Бульба и Иван Грозный, если уж об экстремальной точке зрения говорить...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]shkrobius
2009-06-16 12:59 pm UTC (link)
I can't tell. In China, happiness = a lot of children, so people did it only in dire straights. Now, with one-child policy that encourages the infanticide reversing the 2000 year trend, it is estimated that at least 60,000,000 children have been killed. This includes children up to 3 years that are let to die in state run orphanages, like this little girl
http://morpheus.cc/myworld/issues/meiming.html

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]edwardahirsch
2009-06-16 01:55 pm UTC (link)
Ну, если верить этой статье, то дело не только в "Now, with one-child policy" (выделено мной):

Stories of peasant farmers drowning new-born girls in a bucket of water have been commonplace for centuries.

Запад есть Запад, Восток есть Восток.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shkrobius, 2009-06-16 02:42 pm UTC

[info]buddha239
2009-06-16 08:14 pm UTC (link)
"what even beasts do not do": this is wrong: some beasts do not, yet others do.:)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]shkrobius
2009-06-16 09:21 pm UTC (link)
What Mencius tells is that the VORACIOUS beasts do not DEVOUR their young. In plain English, eat them. Got that? Not just kill their young but eat them. That's correct. There are no mammalian predators that kill and consume their young. Actually, among the whole class I think only Norway rats eat their young. You cannot expect the Chinese to know about the habits of Norway rats, so what Mencius states is absolutely correct.

Why he gave this example if the Chinese knew that some beasts kill their young? One is symbolical (people who kill their children devour their own future - nobody would look after them in their old age). Another one I let you guess yourself.

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